Today’s post is something completely different. I’m gonna do a little experiment. I’ve had a very interesting dialogue with a Christian on the topics of morality and meaning of life. It will be the longest post so far (so please don’t get mad). I do have to say that in retrospective I could’ve answered some questions better but I asnwered the way I did at that time. I really think, that the following illustrates some key difference in our worldviews and how we go about living life, so I wanted to share it with you. We’ll refer to her as Katy in the following thread:

Katy: Why does it matter if we further humanity if eventually we’re all going to be burned up by the sun? And then why do people go against your system of secular morality so often, then? Finity doesn’t give something meaning or beauty. If we have no purpose, we have no meaning. If our purpose is just to exist, then why do we still crave meaning outside of just existing? Your sense of morality justifies all means. By your system, anything is permissible as long as it furthers humanity. If twenty million people got sick with a life-threatening, untreatable, contagious disease, would it be okay to commit genocide so the rest of the world didn’t get it? If a baby was coughing, alerting Nazis in the other room, would it be okay for his mother to smother it so she and the rest of her family didn’t get sent to a prison camp? Where do you draw the line, sir?

Me:Why do we crave meaning outside of ourselves? Speak for yourself cause I don’t. Most people I interact with don’t and most of my friends are theists. They and I crave secular goals of enjoying life. Why do people go against my system? Well firstly not everybody agrees with my system and secondly there are times when individuals see better consequences for themselves if they ignore their empathy. People are selfish but in most cases people do see the value to behave in such a way that society flourishes because they themselves flourish. our purpose isn’t just to “exist” it’s to procreate it’s to start a family and it’s to live life to the best of our abilities. You must be mistaking me for a utilitarianist. I’m not. I do admit that I do’t know how to answer these difficult moral questions. They’re moral dilemmas. As I already conceded my morality isn’t perfect or absolute. In those situations I would then seek out dialogue with the people involved, consider the experts and decide after debating these topics so that we might make the right decision. It always depends on the situation though. If time was lacking I’d probably go with what my gut was telling me. but yes in general human well being (and the well being of other nonhuman animals) is the goal. I’m shocked that you would disagree, How would you go about those dilemmas and why?

Katy: Personally, in the case of the first moral dilemma I would quarantine those already sick, make sure they were as comfortable as possible, and pray. In the second, I would have to trust God to bring the right outcome to pass, knowing that my only responsibility is to obey his instructions (do not murder) and pray for his will to be done. I’m sorry, but my worldview is just much more applicable and sensical than yours. Everything from how the universe came to be, to what our goal in life is, and what our ultimate end will be, is perfectly explained. If you’re not utilitarian, then what are you? From what you’ve said our purpose is, you’re literally the definition of a utilitarian. My belief is that we were created to give glory to God. And that God loves us and can give us much more joy and fulfillment than we could ever give ourselves. We can never create meaning for ourselves unless we have something to live for, if we have a purpose. If our purpose is wrapped up in something that will not last, that no one will ever remember, not even ourselves, then it is meaningless. By your worldview, you will be obliterated. The big empty universe will never remember you, you have no hope, no true joy, no true life. Everything you thought of as beautiful and important will have meant nothing. But my beliefs are the source of my hope, joy, and life, and I have an answer for how we came to be, why we love the things we love, I have an answer for all the questions I have in life, and I know that whatever happens to me, I don’t need to be afraid. I don’t care if I will be torn apart limb by limb, because I have a Savior who loves me, whom I’m going to be with for all of eternity. And I desperately want the same for you.
Me: In the first moral dilemma I agree. Good thinking. In the second one I probably wouldn’t kill the baby neither. Primarily because my conscience wouldn’t allow it. Just listen to my gut. I’m a consequentialist btw. My worldview (Big Bang, evolution) has evidence behind it. Even if we were intelligently designed it wouldn’t mean Goddidit. We can create meaning for ourselves and we do. Starting a family, exploring the world, making a positive impact on people are all things that give my life meaning. My true hope and true joy is life itself. I have no interest in eternal existence and no use of 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 and so on years. That thought alone scares me. At some point I actually want it to end. I don’t know why anyone or anything needs to remember me in order to have meant something. Life and existence is meaningful to me right now. I’m living it and enjoying it. That is all I want or need. “because I have a Savior who loves me, whom I’m going to be with for all of eternity. And I desperately want the same for you.” If given a choice in the matter I thankfully most respectfully decline. If you’re right and I see God at Judgement day I will ask him 2 things: A) What did I miss? Why didn’t I see the evidence? B) I want neither heaven nor hell for eternity. Can I just please die? I don’t expect you to understand my perspective but here is basically why I fear heaven as well as hell: 100000000000000000 years in heaven
This will be my last reply to you. I have other things to do and I need to move on with this topic. Goodbye

Goodbye from yours truly,

Rene von Boenninghausen @Renevelation

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